Does Floyd Mayweather Jr belong with the all-time greats?

By Anthony Mason - 04/17/2014 - Comments

floyd11222I believe that people who claim Floyd Mayweather Jr or Manny Pacquiao to be all time greats are confused when it comes to boxing. Mayweather, although clearly pound for pound number one today, is extremely overrated and is nothing compared to all-time greats in my view. Misinformed fans try to put Floyd in the top 45 all time because Floyd appears great by dominating a weak era – just like Rocky Marciano and Wilt Chamberlain dominated weak eras in their time.

Let’s look at Floyd’s “noteworthy” wins.

1) Genaro Hernandez – He never beat en elite fighter in their prime EVER. When he beat Azumah Nelson, Azumah was a shell of his former self.

2) Diego Corrales – He never beat a notable fighter and got showed up by Castillo Clottey and Casamayor. Paper champion. Did not beat an elite fighter EVER. The fact that he was rated above Floyd, Hopkins, Lennox, Roy Jones in 2001 proves that he is extremely overrated and for this reason people perceive Floyd’s victory as noteworthy when it is not. Does anyone really believe that Corrales is anywhere close to the level of Hopkins, Lennox, or Roy Jones? I hope not. The annual pound for pound rankings can be extremely misleading.

3) Arturo Gatti – Gatti was an exciting boxer but never beat anyone top level. Micky Ward was never an elite fighter, just an exciting one. Ward does not count as a notable win aside from the excitement value of the fight.

4) Jose Luis Castillo – A guy who was never an elite fighter and still managed to beat Mayweather in the first fight but got robbed by the judges. Castillo NEVER beat an elite fighter other than Floyd in the first fight. No excuses about Floyd’s shoulder can be used. Holyfield fought a good fight vs Moorer with a hurt shoulder, and Roy jones beat Bernard Hopkins EASY with a broken right hand. If Floyd wants to hold a candle to those guys the “my shoulder hurts” excuse can’t be used. Yes, Floyd did win the second fight, but the fact remains he got showed up by a good but not great fighter in Castillo. Castillo is certainly not an all-time great and beating him does not propel you into the all-time great ranks. Losing to this guy definitely hurts your stock.

5) Zab Judah – He was an undisputed champion, but he NEVER beat an A level fighter. A championship is only worth as much as the competition you beat. Lost to guys like Cory Spinks and Kosta Tzyu. Even lost to Baldomir. Funny thing is even Judah was dominating the first 4 rounds (knocking down Floyd) before he ran out of gas.

6) Carlos Baldomir – no notable wins. NEVER beat an A level fighter. Zab Judah is not a notable win. Gatti is an exciting fighter but not elite. Baldomir had his 15 minutes of fame from beating Judah/Gatti and that was it. Paper champion like the vast majority of Floyd’s title fight opponents.

7) Ricky Hatton – He fought against weak competition his whole career and had a padded record. C-level Malignaggi and B-level Tzyu are his best wins. The fact that he was rated high on the pound for pound list only shows how sheep are quick to follow the herd when they have no knowledge of boxing. Most pound for pound rankings are a popularity/marketability contest these days and do not accurately reflect true skill.

8) Oscar De La Hoya – another overrated fighter who was gifted wins over Sturm and Whitaker, and almost every time he fought an elite fighter got crushed – look at what happens EVERY TIME Oscar fights top level guys.

  • Mosley (lost twice, tough decision in fight 2)
  • Hopkins (KO)
  • Pacquiao (TKO)
  • Whitaker (robbery)
  • Trinidad (although Oscar got robbed, he did 3 rounds of literally running away – not something a true champion would do)
  • Sturm (robbery).

Oscar must have had Sven Ottke as his mentor with the number of gifted decisions he got. He has a padded record like Floyd making a career of beating weak competition like Vargas, Camacho, and Ricardo “one hit wonder” Mayorga. Yes, a past-prime Chavez is not a great win either. Chavez made a career of fighting cab drivers (as did Camacho) and was fortunate to survive Meldrick Taylor. Oscar is extremely overrated and not a notable win for a supposedly all-time great, especially being past his prime.

9) Marquez – This, everyone has to admit was a masterful performance by Mayweather. Amazing defense, reflexes, and accurate counterpunching. Marquez never did anything the whole fight and couldn’t get on the inside. Amazing technical brilliance performed by Mayweather. But Marquez is the only elite fighter in his prime on Floyd’s resume. Plus – outside of Marco Antonio Barrera and Manny Pacquiao – Who has Marquez beaten? Undersized coming up two weight classes and tailor made for Floyd like Rios for Pacquiao. Marquez is a great win and a good fighter but let’s not blow this win out of proportion. Beating Marquez alone does not put you in the all-time ranks. Even Tim Bradley, Freddie Norwood, and Chris John beat Marquez.

10) Shane Mosley – Floyd likes to criticize other fighters for fighting leftovers when 90% of his fights are leftovers. Mosley was Vernon Forrest and Winky Wright leftovers by the time he got to Floyd. Old gassed and not as explosive or fast as in his prime. Despite that he nearly knocked out Floyd and crushed his supposedly Whitaker-like defense in the first 2 rounds before – again – gassing like all of Floyd’s past prime opponents. It is evident from Mosley’s lack of activity in the next 10 rounds that he wasn’t the same Shane that whipped Oscar.

11) Miguel Cotto – Good fighter. Unfortunately he was Margarito and Pacquiao’s punching bag before he got to Floyd. Despite being past his prime he gave Floyd problems. The “impregnable” defense of Mayweather didn’t seem so unstoppable when Floyd’s face was cut up. Again, Floyd’s hypocrisy is exposed as he criticizes other fighters for fighting leftovers. Immediately after this fight, Cotto lost to Trout, proving beyond a doubt that this was not the Cotto of years past.

12) Victor Ortiz – Never should have been in the ring to begin with. Got crushed by Maidana and beat another overrated guy in Berto. Ortiz was basically a tune up fight it means very little. He has never beaten an elite fighter.

13) Robert Guerrero – like Ortiz. Beat a low-level opponent in Berto and lost to guys like Salido. No top-level wins. Like Ortiz, this win is worth little. Apparently, beating Berto is enough to get you a fight against a supposedly “all-time great” fighter.

14) Canelo Alvarez – Canelo has not beaten anyone outside of a faded Mosley and barely squeaked by Austin Trout. Barely beating Austin Trout who got exposed in the fight after does not make you a notable opponent. Name one A-level boxer in their prime that Canelo beat. There is not one. Do not confuse his popularity and marketability with high boxing ability.

15) Maidana – Good fighter. Not at an elite level though and a win over him will not put Floyd among the greats. Has been easily out-boxed by technical guys before.

With the exception of Marquez (undersized by 2 weight classes), literally all of Floyd’s wins come against the following
1) Paper champions who have NEVER beaten one top level fighter near their prime (Hernandez, Manfredy, Corrales, Baldomir, Judah, Gatti, Ortiz, Castillo)
2) Washed up fighters past their best (Oscar, Cotto, Mosley)
3) Padded record fighters who have NEVER beaten a top fighter in their life (Hatton, Canelo, Corrales)
4) Overrated people on the pound for pound rankings (Corrales, Canelo, Hatton)
5) Weak competition in general (Canelo, Ortiz, Guerrero, Corrales, Baldomir, Mitchell, Ndou, Hatton, Pep, Juuko, Gerena, Vargas, Corley, Bruseles, Chavez, Sosa)

Remember – saying those opponents have belts doesn’t mean anything. John Ruiz was a champion but not exactly an elite fighter.

Also saying things such as – Ricky Hatton/Corrales etc. was rated such and such on the pound for pound list at the time doesn’t prove anything. At one point overrated Oscar was the number 1 pound for pound ahead of guys like Roy Jones and Holyfield while other fighters like Hamed + Tapia were ahead of Lennox Lewis. Now that Golden Boy is in charge of Ring Magazine the pound for pound rankings show extreme bias towards certain fighters. For example, putting Canelo in the top 10 and listing him as the lineal 154 champ before Floyd beat him.

Most pound for pound rankings are a popularity/marketability contest these days and do not accurately reflect true skill. Copy pasting rankings, W-L records, and statistics prove nothing if you don’t put them in context. Doing so will not make paper champions (Hatton/Corrales/Ortiz/Judah) appear more legitimate.

Also remember – records don’t mean everything – Brian Nielsen 64-3, Rocky Marciano 49-0, Ricky Hatton 45-3 have better records statistically compared to guys like Evander 44-10-2, Ali 56-5, Roy Jones 57-8, Bernard Hopkins 54-6-2, etc. even though they couldn’t hold a candle to these fighters. Floyd’s 45-0 (actual 44-1 because of Castillo) is a padded record and does not legitimize him as an all-time great

All of these boxers (IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER) – remember, the list is in NO PARTICULAR ORDER, are pound for pound better than Floyd. Yes, all boxers (including the ones higher than Floyd) of every era have fought tomato cans, but these men’s wins against notable opponents far outweigh anything that a present day fighter has done or will do, at least for the foreseeable future.

1. Joe Louis – Beat Schmeling, Baer, Braddock, Conn, Walcott. 25 HW title defenses in 11 years when Floyd’s whole career consists of 45 fights in 18 years, plus a one year retirement.

2. Sam Langford – A lightweight beating up heavyweights, was 30 pounds lighter than heavyweight Jack Johnson when he fought him, also beat Harry Wills, Gans, and Ketchel. A lightweight fighting an all-time great heavyweight and giving him a competitive fight (even if he lost) is much more impressive than Floyd beating oversized padded record fighters like Canelo and a washed up Oscar.

3. Henry Armstrong – Number 2 pound for pound all time. Held 3 titles simultaneously in an era with only 8 weight classes and one title per class. No Junior/Super weight classes and no 4 belts per weight class like in recent eras. Beat Barney Ross, Fritzie Zivic and more.

4. Walker Smith (Sugar Ray Rob) – The greatest of all time. 128-1-2 in his prime, and he fought and beat the best of his era even after his prime – Olson, Lamotta, Basora, Turpin, Fullmer, Costner, Gavilan you could go on and on.

5. Ray Leonard – Finished Benitez, made Duran quit, came from behind to beat Tommy Hearns. After a 3 year layoff moved up in weight to fight Hagler and in my opinion lost but you could make a case for either guy winning.

6. Marvin Hagler – finished Hearns in 3 rds. Again, you could score Leonard Hagler either way. Beat Duran. KOd Mugabi and beat Hamsho twice

7. Tommy Hearns – Got robbed in a rematch with Ray Leonard, KOd Duran in 2 rounds! Beat Benitez. Even when he was past his prime he beat Virgil Hill. He did lose to Barkley but Barkley was much bigger than him and styles make fights. Conversely Floyd has never fought someone like Vernon Forrest or Winky Wright who have the perfect style to beat him like Barkley did vs Hearns.

8. Roberto Duran – First man to beat Ray Leonard. Also beat Iran Barkley (and Duran is a natural LIGHTWEIGHT). Conversely, Floyd’s only win over a prime and legitimate opponent, and his best win comes against an undersized guy (Marquez). Duran is arguably the greatest 135er of all time – beating guys such as undisputed champion Ken Buchanan. Had one slip up vs Esteban Jesus (and relatively early in his career) that he avenged easily twice.

9. Roy Jones – had a lot of not so great opposition but – he beat Hopkins with a broken right hand EASILY, destroyed an undefeated James Toney, beat Cesar Gonzalez, KOd Virgil Hill, was a middleweight and moved up to heavyweight to win a belt. – Of course, Ruiz is not a great heavyweight but regardless it is mind blowing that a former middleweight had the skill to even step into a ring versus a heavyweight let alone dominate.

10. Bernard Hopkins – Bernard Hopkins dominated an undefeated Trinidad, KOd Oscar (who is overrated but the same competition that Floyd and Manny fought – only he wasn’t as washed up when he fought Bernard), beat Winky Wright who was on a 12-0-1 streak, and is the only man to finish Glen Johnson. After his time at middleweight, he immediately moved up 2 classes to beat Tarver (when Floyd would not even move up one class to fight prime Martinez or Williams), destroyed an undefeated Pavlik at over 40 years old and beat Pascal twice even though he got robbed with a draw. Still fighting at the highest level at the age of 49

11. Ezzard Charles – Beat the great Joe Louis. As a blown up 175er, he was making Marciano have problems. Beat guys like Maxim, Bivins, Archie Moore, and Reynolds. Beat and lost to Jersey Joe Walcott also

12. Archie Moore – Also like Ezzard, a blown up 175er who gave Marciano a lot of problems. Beat, Maxim, Olson, Valdes,

13. Jersey Joe Walcott – Beat Charles, Bivins, Maxim, etc. Crushed Rocky as a blown up 175er before getting KOd. (Remember, you have to factor in that this is a old fighter at a much lower natural weight class whipping a top level HW – he did lose, but the fact that he and guys like Moore and Charles were causing problems despite those disadvantages is notable – just like Langford making Johnson have a tough fight)

14. Evander Holyfield – Undisputed Cruiser and Heavyweight champ. Beat Qawi at cruiser. Easily beat Riddick Bowe in fight 2, avenged his loss to Moorer, beat Tyson, beat an old Foreman and Holmes – who were still notable wins despite being old (unlike Oscar or some other guys), beat Ray Mercer too. For a natural cruiser to dominate the HW division is mind-blowing.

15. Lennox Lewis – Beat every man he ever faced. Beat Holyfield twice. Finished Tommy Morrison. KOd Golota in one round (who should’ve beaten Bowe if he didn’t snap). Smashed in Vitali Klitschko’s face despite being 38 and in the worst shape of his career while Vitali was in his prime.

16. Larry Holmes – beat Cooney, Shavers twice, Norton, and robbed vs Spinks. Even though Larry was old he still beat Ray Mercer.

17. Muhammad Ali – Patterson, Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton (he did get a few gifts though – also a gift vs Jimmy Young), Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis. Not much explanation needed

18. Joe Frazier – the only people to beat him are Foreman and Ali. Still beat Ali, Quarry, Bob Foster, Bonavena, Jimmy Ellis.

19. George Foreman – absolutely crushed Frazier and Norton. Foreman beat Ron Lyle. In his old age and he gave Holyfield a tough fight when he shouldn’t have even been in the ring at 40+. Won the title again in his old age KOing Moorer. His old version still beat Gerry Cooney.

20. Willie Pep – greatest defensive fighter of all time. Beat Saddler, Blair, and multiple other top level boxers.

21. Jack Johnson – He did duck Langford after beating him, but he still whipped top guys like Jeffries, Fitzsimmons, Burns, and Ketchel. Despite his ducking, the fights that he didn’t duck make his career better than Floyd’s by a long shot.

22. Harry Greb – only man to beat Tunney. Beat Micky Walker. Floyd is 45-0 in his whole career. Harry Greb was 45-0 in one year alone. And he didn’t fight all bums in that year.

23. Pernell Whitaker – He did have a lot of weak opposition but there are a few things he has that put him above. He had much better defense than Floyd – and that’s not a knock on Floyd. Pernell was just that good. He crushed Oscar when Oscar was in his prime and Pernell was near the end. Old Pernell did much better against prime Oscar than a prime Floyd did against an old Oscar. He also beat Vasquez and Azumah Nelson, and beat Chavez easy. Chavez was overrated, but the manner in which Pernell crushed him is unbelievable and the manner in which he beat Chavez is enough to put him high. Pernell beating Chavez is more impressive than Oscar beating Chavez, because Chavez was still undefeated when Pernell whipped him.

24. Tiger Flowers – wins over Micky Walker, Lou Bogash, Jock Malone, and three competitive fights over Greb that have been debated. More notable than any of Floyd’s wins

25. Barney Ross – wins over Canzoneri, Ceferino, and McLarnin. Far more notable than Floyd’s best wins over Marquez and washed up Oscar

26. Mickey Walker – wins over Britton and Flowers far more notable than any of Floyd’s wins.

27. Gene Tunney – Tunney’s wins over Greb, Jeff Smith, Gibbons, and Dempsey are more notable than Floyd’s career of weaker opposition.

28. Joe Gans – His notable wins are greater than Floyd’s – Dobbs, Elbows Mcfadden, Steve Crosby, etc.

29. Benny Leonard – Same thing as Gans – beat Britt, Welsh, Kilbane, Britton

30. Bob Fitzsimmons – Other than Roy Jones he is the only guy to go from middleweight to the heavyweight title. Big wins over Peter Maher and Philly Jack O’Brien.

31. Jimmy McLarnin – beat Canzoneri, Glick, Benny Leonard and Barney Ross. Notable wins are greater than Floyd’s

32. Tony Canzoneri – beat Bill Petrolle, Kid Chocolate, Klick, Dublinsky – all bigger wins than Floyd’s wins.

33. Jake Lamotta – Lamotta beat prime Ray Robinson once, Cerdan, Zivic multiple times, and Basora. If you think any of Floyd’s wins are even close to on par with a Marcel Cerdan or undefeated Sugar Ray Rob you are mistaken.

34. James Toney – Finished the underrated and undefeated Michael Nunn, beat Mike McCallum, went from middleweight and should have won the HW title if it wasn’t for a failed drug test. Even though Evander was old when James TKOd him, it is still impressive coming from a middleweight. Meanwhile Floyd was unwilling to fight prime Sergio or Paul Williams at 154.

35. Carlos Monzon – Monzon’s wins over Griffith, Benvenuti, Mundine, Moyer are better than Floyd’s best wins.

36. Emile Griffith – His wins over Rodriguez, Benvenuti, Tiger, and Archer outclass Floyd’s weak wins.

37. Jack Dempsey – undersized HW who beat guys like Meehan, Willard, Gunboat, Morris, Brennan, Miske, Carpentier, Firpo, Sharkey – all better than Floyd’s weak wins

38. Gene Fullmer – Mueller, past prime Sugar Ray Rob, Turner, Flanagan, Castellani, Humez all better wins than Floyds

39. Kid Gavilan – Beau Jack, Castellani, Ike Williams enough good wins to rank over Floyd

40. Jose Napoles – wins over Garcia, Gutierrez, Vasquez, Urbina, Hernandez, Cokes, Menetrey are better

41. Marcel Cerdan – Copy pasting a guy’s record is not a good way to tell their skill (especially with Floyd) – but this guy had only 4 losses (2 DQ) in 15 yrs and 115 fights. 100% guaranteed if Floyd had to fight that often against Cerdan’s level of competition he would have more than 4 – especially since he lost once vs Castillo who is not as good a fighter as these guys that Cerdan beat – Delannoit, Dick Turpin, Zale, Holman Williams

42. Eder Jofre – Gomez, Lopez, Jimenez, Jamito, Caraballo, Medel, Calwell, better wins

43. Sandy Saddler – Brady, Pep x3, Keery, Acevedo, LaSane, Freeman better wins

44. Young Corbett III – Conn, Dick Foster, Burke, Glen Lee, Frank Britt, Mickey Walker, Jack Fields all better wins

45. Billy Conn – Dundee, Yarosz, Corbet III, Apostoli, Krieger, Bettina, Lesnevich, Zale are better wins

46. Bobo Olson – Gavilan, Turpin, Castellani, Langlois, Maxim, Giambra better wins

So, after looking at this pound for pound list IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER of ranking, Floyd cannot be placed any higher than about 47, with Pacquiao right behind at 48. A good accomplishment, but definitely not in the league of all-time great status.

The following arguments that I am going to write below this paragraph are fallacious and if anyone tries to use these arguments to dispute these facts that have been written it will only prove one’s own incompetence and ignorance. I will dismantle these weak arguments in the same way Castillo dismantled Mayweather in April 2002.

1) Mayweather makes his opponents look bad that’s why it seems like they’re weak competition – NO. The INDISPUTABLE FACT is that his opponents are unworthy of holding a belt, past their prime, old, washed up, overrated, padded records like Floyd, or any combination of these. (With the ONE exception of Marquez)

2) Mayweather 45-0 – So what? Calzaghe 46-0 (actually 45-1 because Hopkins got robbed). Marciano 49-0. Brian Nielsen at one point was 49-0. Padded record means nothing. What’s your point?

3) A lot of Floyd’s wins like Baldomir, Hatton, Corrales, Ortiz were against champions – That means nothing. You don’t even have to be an elite fighter to be a champion in boxing today and that is a testament to how comparatively weak Floyd’s era is compared to past eras. All these guys were/are champions too Lamont Peterson, Danny Green, John Ruiz, Byrd, Sanders, Valuev, Angel Cuello. There’s a difference between fighting belt-holders (Floyd’s opponents) and real champions (Big 4 era, pre mid-2000s HW era, etc.) This isn’t an era where holding belts in multiple weight classes actually means something. Even Broner is a 2-division champ and he skipped 140. You can’t compare that to Henry Armstrong simultaneously being the FW, LW, and WW champ (in an era with only 8 weight classes no less). The value of belts has been diminished greatly over the years, and is only worth as much as your competition. In Floyd’s case – little.

4) Floyd has the best defense of all time – Nope. Willie Pep and Pernell Whitaker had better defense. Don’t forget masters such as Niccolino Locche and Wilfred Benitez who are in Mayweather’s league when it comes to defense. Also, boxers like Ali and Roy Jones were much harder to hit based on their pure speed and reflexes. Floyd got smacked up by old Mosley, Judah, old Oscar, old Cotto, and Castillo. Yes he has an AMAZING defense but not the best.

5) Floyd makes the most money/pay-per view out of any boxer in history – And? What does money have to do with anything? Money doesn’t make you a better fighter.

6) Floyd has been undefeated for 18 years – So what? Since 2001 (when Floyd just started becoming a big name) Floyd has not fought more than 3 times in a year, and that was only once in 2005 . Every other year Floyd fought 1-2 times and even took a year off for retirement. Floyd has 45 fights in 18 years. That’s about 2.5 fights a year. Sugar Ray Rob in his prime (128-1-2) fought on average 12 times a year. There is no comparison. Joe Louis had 25 defenses of his title in 11 years. Joe Louis’ title defenses alone are more than HALF of Floyd’s ENTIRE CAREER. Sam Langford knocked out almost TRIPLE the amount of people that Floyd has fought in his WHOLE CAREER. I could go on and on.

7) All the other great fighters in the past lost – Yes, and they fought a million times better competition. Ali fought Foreman, Frazier, Patterson, Liston, Holmes, and Norton. Roy Jones fought James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, and Mike Mccallum. Sugar Ray Rob fought Lamotta, Armstrong, Gavilan, Fullmer, and Turpin. Floyd has not fought anyone in their prime that was better than Marquez, and Marquez does not compare to those fighters.

8) Floyd has 8 titles in 5 divisions – What’s your point? This is not an era where that means a lot. There are four major belts per class, and Floyd won a lot of belts against paper champions (Hernandez, Manfredy, Juuko). You can’t compare this to Henry Armstrong holding 3 titles possible in 3 weight classes (when there was only one belt per class) out of 8 possible weight classes. Floyd fought a weak level of competition in winning his belts. In the past eras, there was one title per class, no Super/Junior weight classes, no 4 belts per class, and no minor intercontinental, international belts. Being a champion back then means a lot more than beating paper champions today.

9) Compubox and punch stats say such and such about Floyd – Compubox stats are extremely unreliable, and often count missed or glancing punches as effective shots. Please do not use compubox as your reasoning for anything, because it is incredibly misleading.

Now that we have taken an in-depth look at Floyd’s resume, we can see that it is not all that it is made out to be. It is impressive, but definitely not among the best. When looking at Floyd’s resume objectively and with an open mind, it is easy to see, as is the case with Pacquiao that Floyd is nothing close to an all-time great.



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