What Does Pacquiao Have To Do To Silence His Critics? Part 2
June 26th, 2009
By Joel Nepomuceno: As I stated in my article before this one, one of the key criticisms of Manny Pacquiao is that he hasn’t fought anyone in their prime, or that his opponents have all been shot or weight drained. Critics continue to argue that Pacquaio is only great because he’s only fought weight drained fighters. They always seem to ask, “why is he insisting on demanding catch weights?”
After the Oscar De La Hoya fight, Pacquiao’s trainer, Freddie Roach stated that 140 is Pacquiao’s limit. Yes, the bout was at welterweight, but Pacquiao weighed in at 142 and come fight night, his unofficial weight was in the neighborhood of 147. Obviously, Pacquiao couldn’t reach the welterweight limit if he wanted to. And why put on an extra 5lbs of fat which will decrease his hand speed?
His demand for a catchweight is not about draining his opponents so they are not at their physical peak. He’s not using a catch weight to his advantage, but rather, to take away his future opponent’s advantage. His three next potential opponents are Miguel Cotto, Shane Mosley, and Floyd Mayweather. All three are natural welterweights. All three have come into the ring at roughly 158-160lbs during fight night. Is this not a significant advantage for Miguel Cotto, Shane Mosley, and Floyd Mayweather. Those three fighters are already great (all belong on the pound for pound list), now they are going to have a 11-13 lbs. advantage of Manny Pacquiao?
How is Manny Pacquiao being criticized for asking for a catch weight from these guys? The top 3 welterweights in the sport today? Instead of asking why Manny Pacquiao is asking them to lose so much weight, shouldn’t the question that be asked is why are they asking Manny Pacquiao to gain so much weight? Fighters, especially top epsilon fighters such as Cotto, Mosley, and Mayweather pay their nutritionists six figure salaries to make sure they’re making weight the right way. Oscar De La Hoya said before his fight that he felt faster and stronger than he’s ever felt. After the fight, he felt sluggish because of his weight. Something tells me it’s not his weight, he was just shot. (I rated that win over De La Hoya as overrated as well)
As far as for Cotto, Mosley, and Mayweather, I don’t see anything wrong with meeting in the middle. For Oscar De La Hoya, Pacquiao jumped two weight classes, and Oscar came down one. Does that sound fair? Did anyone give Manny Pacquiao a shot at winning the Oscar De La Hoya fight?
So, one may ask, if Manny Pacquiao will have a hard time fighting at 147, why does he not stay at 140lbs? The question that I ask of his critics is, would you rather see Pacquiao vs. Cotto, Mosley, or Mayweather, or would you rather see Pacquiao fighting Bradley, Witter, and Kotelnick? Which would make the most money? Which would make the most PPV buys? Which are the fights the fans want to see? Which would do more for each of the fighter’s legacy?
If Pacquiao did stay in his division and fought Bradley, Witter, and Kotelnick, would he not be criticized for “ducking” Cotto, Mosley and Mayweather? Would you say that he’s ducking the best in the divisions around him? If his next opponents are Cotto, Mosley and Mayweather, then he’ll be criticized for asking them to drain themselves. If he wins, then he’ll get no credit. If he loses, then his critics will say that he was never good to begin with, so which is it?
There have also been talks about Pacquiao avoiding Paul Williams. This is laughable and any writer who tries to make this argument needs to find a true calling as writing may not be for them. Paul Williams? The guy who is 6’2, 82” reach, recently fought at Middleweight Paul Williams? Williams started his career at Jr. Middleweight, yes, he’s had 7 fights at Welterweight in the middle of his career, but he has not been at welterweight in 4 fights. 4 fights ago, Pacquiao was at 130 lbs. Can you imagine Paul Williams fighting at Cruiserweight within the next year? Is he avoiding Tomasz Adamek?
The Ring Magazine, boxing’s bible, has unanimously voted him as the Pound for Pound best. And the critics are having a field day with this as they say that if he is the Pound for Pound best, then he should fight and beat Cotto, Mosley and Mayweather at their weight.
But let’s examine what Pound for Pound really means. It means that a boxer, within his own weight class is the best, across divisions. Within his own weight class is the key aspect. So if Isreal Vasquez wanted to jump in front of Bernard Hopkins, would he have to jump to Light Heavyweight to prove he’s better? The formula is, weight aside, who would be the best. So to insist he has to fight Cotto, Mosley and Mayweather at their natural weight division is mute.
Not everyone agrees that Pacquiao is the Pound for Pound king. However, a majority of experts, seem to agree that he is. Experts who get paid to analyze fights, fighters, and boxing itself. Who ever the athlete, there will always be critics. Some are justified, some are not. However, in the case of Manny Pacquiao’s nay-sayers who argue that he only fights weight drained opponents, I challenge them to name anyone, other than Oscar De La Hoya, that Pacquiao has fought in the past that fought below their normal weight class. In the case of his three next potential fights, all pound for pound contenders, all naturally bigger than Pacquiao, is it fair for them to come in with an 11-13lbs weight advantage come fight night? Is it unfair to ask that they meet their significantly smaller opponent to meet somewhere in the middle? Reasonable fans that use logic, agree that it’s not unreasonable. However, critics will always find aspects of ones career to call into question. As my parents used to say, you really can’t please everyone.
Tags: 39 Responses to “What Does Pacquiao Have To Do To Silence His Critics? Part 2”
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all you pac fans please keep talking thats why cotto is training for a month already and pac is in his country making movies. just sleeping on cotto. good thats why cotto is so motivated. so pacquiao and pac fans keep sleeping on cotto because on november 14 pacquiao is going to do some real sleeping
Pacquiao is a DEHYDRATOR, he is like De La Joya when he fought Hopkins. Hopkins went 7 pounds lower than his fighting weight, and Oscar went up by 6 lbs. Result? D dehydrated Hopkins knocked him OFF.
2nd: Pacquaio vs Oscar. Pacquiao’s weight was 142 lb, actually Oscar cheated, Pacman’s weight at the hotel was 145 lb. That means, Pacquiao fighting Hatton, he weighs 138 lb. Pacquiao fought 7 lb lower than he fought Hatton?
He dehydrated himself like hopkins to WIN.
Bad Pacquiao! You are a dehydrator!
Surely, when he will fight COTTO, he Will REHYDRATE,
then Pacquiao will lose!
95%. Pacquiao will cry, hu hu hu!
Why does people say Hatton was the best at 140 he never fought the other good 140 lbs, witter, holt, bradley. When he fought Castillo that was the faded castillo, if it was the same castillo that corrales or mayweather fought. Hatton would have lost.
laptop playing up.. but meeting at 145 surely shouldnt be
nepster- yeah can see where your coming mate.. it would do more for his leagacy.. the only thing
Nepster- yeah can see where your coming from. these days i dont see the point in even having belts are they important.. these days its all about fighters meeting a
nice one, he hjas done what most cant do, give credit when its due
I know, Nepster, but Manny’s fans does’t.
Also, to answer your question, Pound for Pound has nothing to do with official titles within official weight classes, so why would I give you P4P answer when you specifally asked about Cotto’s official welterweight belt? Believe it or not, I do follow boxing and know about weight classes.
This is why B-Hop did not take Pavlik’s title when he schooled him.
JCV – I actually agree with you. Although I don’t see anything wrong for Pacquiao to ask for a catch weight when fighting naturally bigger fighters, I think you’re right.
If they are fighting for Cotto’s title at WELTERWEIGHT, they should have to fight at the welterweight limit of 147 lbs. I don’t think the sanctioning bodies would allow the fight to be for Cotto’s title if there was a catchweight involved.
However, if it’s not for his title, then a catch weight is fair.
The answer is simple, who’s going up and want his 6 title, in this case, at the welterweights. Manny Paquiao was the first one who call Miguel Cotto after Clottey’s fight, and I think, before the fight.
Historically, any fighter who want a title in other division, simply make the arrangements, go up in weight and fight with the next division champ.
Alexis Arguello, Wilfredo Benitez, Roberto “Mano de Piedra” Duran, Wilfredo Gomez, Emille Grifith, Shugar Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker and Sugar Shane Mosley are just a few examples. All of them were champs in three or more divisions and, as far I know, they never ask for a catch-weight.
Asking for a catch-weight is an acceptance of “you are to big for me”. But Manny and Freddy Roach, they had an idea, what if you come down here to 143 pounds and fight with me for your title of 147. WOW! that’s a test. A test for who? For the champ?
Who want to prove his greatness? Why the champ have to give way or cede?
Maybe someone can clarified this dilemma. Seriously, since when a challenger ask the champ of the next division for a catch-weight?
P.S. Please, don’t answer with the P4P stupidity.
Sugar ray and Pacman cherry picking, hum! do you even watch boxing? Coz Hagler, Hearns,Duran for Sugar, and Morales, Barrera, Marquez and now Cotto for Pacman. that is one hell of a giant cherries.
NW2
If Hatton was like you say 18 stone 3 months before the fight then it would be like James J. Jeffries
comming out of retirement to fight Jack Johnson.
Then Hatton should retire
How do we know that Hatton was not healthy for the pacman fight? There was not enough time for us to see…pac ko’d him to fast. Sorry, there’s no way that Hatton would have won unless he had a shotgun.
It doesn’t matter what Pacman’s critics say. What matters is what the general boxing public thinks and that is Pacquiao is an exciting fighter that entertains and worth paying for to see. What he has achieved can never be duplicated by most boxers. I guess the $40M he made last year is not too bad for a country boy. He’s probably laughing his critic’s ass off on his way to the bank.
Hey Shyon,
I don’t think it was the fact that Hatton was weight drained, I think that it was more of the fact he thought he was going to be able to bully Pacquiao around like he did Malignaggi. I think he under-estimated Pac’s power because ODLH told him he was a light hitter. The ODLH that’s fought at Middleweight. But once he saw that Pac could hurt him, he went back to fighting the way he’s been doing for 46 fights and it ended up biting him in the ass.
I don’t think Hatton looked sluggish, or slow at all in that fight. I think that Pacquiao could have knocked out a horse with that last punch. But that’s just my opinion.
Anyway, keep the productive comments coming as I welcome a different perspective!
say what you want kelly boy. you should have seen hatton 3months before the fight he look like 18 stone. look at him when he fought malignani. he look like the same as he was when he was fighting pacman. odlh reason y he took the fight with pacman is the same reason as hatton. they think they can beat him. they under estimate pacman.
paquiao never back down.not like mayweather…
You’re right he would get much more respect. But let’s face it…Cotto is much more dangerous than ODLH. Freddie Roach knew ODLH was shot, and to be honest with you, his win over ODLH was over rated, in my opinion. Sugar Shane Mosley went into the Wild Card Gym (about a month ago) and asked Roach for a fight. Roach said, can you come down to 143-144. Sugar Shane Mosley was like, you fought ODLH at 147. Roach said, “You’re no ODLH” which means, Roach knew that ODLH was shot, and Mosley with a 13lbs weight advantage of Pac would be too much. I’m a Pac fan, but I think that with an 11lbs -13lbs advantage that Cotto, Mosley, or Mayweather would have over Pac if they fought at 147 would be too much for him. I think having a catch weight at 144-145 levels the field…but I agree, that it would do more for Pac’s legacy. I think it’s a little unreasonable, though, to ask Pac to face the top 3 Welterweights at full 147 when he’s a naturally smaller guy. Anyway, that’s just my opinion.
nepster- yeah i know the agreed weight for odlh fight was at 147.. i know pacman weighed in at 142..so why cant he fight cotto at 147 and come in at 142 again. he would get much more respect from pundits if he thought him actually at the welterweight limit of 147..because it does give critics bait to criticise roach and pacman for trying to gain an advantage..
Shyon – Hatton was weight drained? “Nobody can beat me at 140lbs”- Ricky Hatton. 140lbs was Ricky Hatton’s division. Pacquiao was going into RICKY HATTON’S DIVISION FOR THE FIRST TIME. How could he be weight drained when he said himself that 147lbs, when he fought Mayweather, was too big for him? Don’t say he was shot as well…because I’m sure you, just like everyone else were singing his praises after the Malignaggi fight.
Fazman – The agreed upon weight for ODLH was welterweight, but Pac came in at 142. There is no way that ODLH could come down to Jr. Welterweight. Pac maxed out at 142 and Freddie Roach said himself that 140 is Pac’s limit after the ODLH fight. That’s why he’s not going to fight at full welterweight.
I think pacquiao will beat him at 145 or 147.. I believe cotto will be too methodical for pacquiao and believe he will get picked apart in later rounds!
Good article, I think you got some very good points. The only argument I have is that if pacquiao can fight de la hoya at 147.. why cant he fight cotton at 147.. i know de la hoya did drop down in weight but pacman was willing to fight him at 147 so why not cotto at 147?
What can Pacquiao do to silence his critics?
Well, for openers he can stop cherry picking. I think that he learned that from Sugar Ray Leonard.
What guys like that do, is wait until a really good fighter is shot,or injured, then they convice their
opponent to come in weight drained to get the win.
Then after the win, they take full credit for beating a full blown weleter champ. They collect vitories from big name fighters by convincing them
to come into the fight weight drained.
Thats how Ray Leonard beat Donny Lalonde and thats how Pac beat Delahoya and Hatton. He will claim the victory, but he would not go anywhere near these guys if they were in good health and in fighting shape at a decent weight.
Lets face it Leonard waited until Hagler was done before he had the balls to fight him. Pac is the same way. These guys are not like Roberto Duran, who is a real fighter. They are simply opportunists.
Nacho Beristain said Paquiao will knock out cooto on the six..just go and read it.dont pay attention to Manuel Perez because he is being paid to do this,deep inside,the truth ,he admire Paquiao so much,but because of the money,he intend to do such..
3 stars – hey I like that…j nep. Sounds catchy.
Batengueno (Or Manuela Perez) – War weary Morales. How could Eric Morales go from beating Manny Pacquiao to being “war weary” when he only had one fight in between his first fight and second fight with Pacquiao? Marco Antonion Barrera was old? He was 29 when they fought. Don’t tell me because he was also “war weary” because Pac’s been in many wars. What about his first fight with JMM (regardless if you thought he won or not). His first fight with Morales? That was a war was it not? Are you saying Pac’s been war wearing since 2004? Those are just excuses. You can’t say someone the opponents that Pac has fought are shot because they’ve been in too many wars as Pac has been in a number of them himself and he continues to impress. I agree about De La Hoya, but what is it that you exactly did you want Manny Pacquaio to do…”stop in the middle of the fight, and be like…hey, you’re not the same ODLH. Wanna do this another day?” Hatton was unbeaten at 140lbs. Did you give Pacquiao a chance after Hatton’s showed his “new and improved” defense with Malignaggi. You’re always going to find reasons to criticize Pacquiao. Even if Pac fougth Klitschko and knocked him out at the heavyweight, you would still come up with some bogus complaint.
i think batangueno is mp or his lover
FIGHT MOSELY !!!!!!
lets see if mp is gonna comment on this one
All that is just because he isn’t american.
The same criticism they get in all divisions when the champions aren’t americans or from UK.
Boxing is apparently very racistic sport nowadays… If you aren’t american and keep winning automatically means you are cheating or your opponents are all crap B- or even C-class fighters or bums and the division is classifyed then automatically as weak.
Nice article but he forgot to include Hatton who was unbeated at 140 lbs. (the best at this weight). Hatton did not go down the weight, he was pretty sure (and his team) that his win over Malignaggi showed everyone how strong he was (especially at 140 lbs.).. You don’t hear Hatton say he did not do his best,he even said he used his usual fighting style…. Hatton was never handpicked, he was the next contender to whoever wins the Dela Hoya – Pacquiao fight…. The boxing experts like Beristain, hall of famer coaches were proven wrong with their predictions by who? by Pacquiao. They always compare him with Juan Manual Marquez, but let me ask you, which of his fights do you remember? Just his fight with Pacquiao… all the other fights we don’t even recall so why is he at the same league as Pacquiao? The answer to this I got to see….
Those welterweights should fight pacman at 147 no less, provided that weight-in should be done 1 hour before the fight. So all are equal.
If they truly want pacman to fight the trio, mosley, mayweather and cotto at welterweight that fine at 147. But the weight-in should be done at 1 hour before the fight, so that they have the same weight. They are fighting for welterweight so fight at the real weight 147. That way those FUfgffCfdsKING CRITICS will have no reason to argue that the fight was done at lower than 147.
ricky hatton was weight drained.although granted he wsnt fighting below his weight class.good artical.very fair comments about the top fighters comming down just a couple of pounds and pac goin up all that weight.these new writers that have poped up on this site recently are a step above them half wits man perez and anti joe callzaghe scott gimpford ah mean gilford!
Nothing. There is nothing he can do, because he is OVERRATED. Cherry-picked slow David Diaz. Granted, everybody expected Oscar to be too much, but that was not Oscar who showed up, it was only the shell of Oscar. Hatton has been shot, and like him, overrated. Old Barrera, war-weary Morales on the 2nd and 3rd fight, antique Larios, and a bunch of 2nd and 3rd-tier hand-picked opponents. Pacquiao is a product of hype-machine.
i respect pacman but…..cotto will end the win streek!!!then beat prittyboyfloyd!
I think you hit the nail on the head…good article and lets see if anyone can argue against anything you said…..
A very judicious and professionally balanced assessment!” What a boon. A Daniel has come to judgment!”
Thank you Joel Nepomuceno for writing an article that gives Pacman the respect he rightfully deserves. If you can only tell all of this to that biased moron Manuel Perez.