By Michael Lieberman: Since everyone has been busy discussing Julio Cesar Chavez Jr’s poor performance on Saturday against Matt Vanda, I thought this was the best time to examine the boxing career of Chavez Jr’s father, Julio Cesar Chavez (107-6-2, 86 KOs). I don’t really see the greatness there, to tell you the truth. Sure, he’s got a lot of wins on his record, but the vast majority of the wins have come over soft opposition.
I see some good fighters in the group of wins over good fighters like Hector “Macho” Camacho, Greg Haugen, Meldrick Taylor, Roger Mayweather and Edwin Rosario, but there’s no truly excellent fighters of Chavez Sr’s wins in his career. Perhaps his best win of his career was over Taylor, but that win was made much less impressive considering that he was losing the fight at the time it was stopped with two seconds to go in the 12th round.
Taylor’s subsequent blowout losses to Terry Norris and Crisanto Espana also seemed to put Chavez’s in perspective. Don’t get me wrong, I think Chavez was certainly a good fighter, good enough to beat other good fighters like himself, but not anywhere close to being that of a great fighter. In terms of ability, he was more like a limited plodder, a fighter that would come face forward in a straight line against mostly average competition. When he did finally start facing good fighters near the end of the career, his success took a hit, with losses to Kostya Tszyu, Oscar De La Hoya, Frankie Randall and Willy Wise.
No one thinks he’s even near as good as his record indicates, and few give him any chance to beat the better fighters in the division like Manny Pacquiao and Juan Manuel Marquez. I think the same holds true with Chavez. He was good, just like Valero, but he fought a pretty motley crew of opponents, most of them average fighters. When Chavez began to step it up against really good - not great - the fighters like Frankie Randall, then we started seeing problems occurring.
In the case of his fight with Pernell Whitaker in 1993, Chavez was given a gift draw, in a fight that was clearly a win by Whitaker in the minds of most boxing fans and experts alike. The draw enabled Chavez to extend his unbeaten streak a little further than it should have been, although he was eventually beaten a year later by Randall. To me, that doesn’t seem like the credentials of a fighter that is truly great, you know? If a fighter is great, like everyone says Chavez is, then how come he didn’t beat Whitaker, Randall, Tszyu, Wise and De La Hoya? Can you answer me that? I personally don’t think any of them are great, but in light of the fact that they beat Chavez, I see them as being better fighters than him at least.
When you look at a fighter’s record, especially someone with a hugely inflated record with a lot of wins, you must immediately filter out the wins over nobodies, because they don’t count. Focus only on the good fighters and use only them to determine the worth of a fighter, not the overall record because that’s often bloated and meaningless. So by going over Chavez’s real fights, he comes out to be more of 50-50 fighter, with some good wins over Rosario, Camacho and Mayweather, and then some bad loses to Randall, Wise, De La Hoya and Tszyu. That pretty much says all there is to say about Chavez being great. He’s good, but that’s about it.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
CHAVEZ IS A LEGEND, ASK MAYWEATHER ,ROSARIO TAYLOR, HAUGEN ,CAMACHO, LEGENDS GET OLD JUST LIKE ANYBODY ELSE, LEGENDS HAVE THERE TIME THEY ARE NOT IMMORTAL, DE LA HOYA WOULD HAVE GOTTEN NOCK OUT BY CHAVEZ IF BOTH WOULD HAVE FOUGHT IN THERE PRIME AT 135 LBS, DONT COMPARE BIRDS WITH AIRPLANES
July 16th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Hey you gringos you all take smack. Let me get one thing straight homes gringos cant fight.
1) Chavez did beat Wise in rematch
2) He beat Randall twice in rematch
3) Michael he’ll kick your ass
July 17th, 2008 at 1:09 am
This is one of the worst articles I have ever read. There is always some way to make a fighters record look bad, but just becouse you can, does not mean you should. I’m sure this article might strike a cord with the newer generation of boxing fans, who have little knowledge of great fighters such as Chavez. That being said, this article just comes across as a completely ignorant rant, by a clearly less than knowledgeable person.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:29 am
keep getting error
July 17th, 2008 at 8:29 am
I don’t want to make this to long. But, I would like to say non-fighters (spectators) think they know the boxing/fight game and say this type of crap all the time. All careers start with bums. That is how fighters records are built to get the public eye on them. Average boxing or non boxing fans don’t care about what bum their guy is fighting as long as their guy wins. And if it is by KO or just a win, they are happy and will watch again. Now if you know boxing you’ll know that fighters like Chavez get old fast. They shine bright and burn out quick. In their early 30’s, all of them. You forget that Chavez beat some better then average fighters besides the ones you mentioned which are close to being great. They might not be hall-of-fame’s but, are damn good fighters that would have given the list that beat Chavez trouble or maybe even beat them. Mayweather almost handed Permell Whitaker a loss dropping him as well. The losses against De La Hoya and Tszyu were (for a face first fighter) past his prime and it showed even against guys that he was brushing up on. If you know boxing you can tell that. I am just saying. Chavez also wasn’t just a face first fighter yes he really relied on that in the later years because he could take a punch. But, if you look at his earlier fights you’ll see the subtle defense that used little energy of deflecting and paring punches. Making fighters barely miss or glace off his gloves. That was the genius behind that man. Also, what made him great was the relentless pressure he gave and got stronger (when he was younger) as the fight went on and he broke his opponents down physically and mentally. Taylor, Mayweather, ROSARIO, Camacho (those 2 can go in as great fighters again not hall-of-fame’s but great) don’t forget when he needed to box he could do that as well with Jose Luis Ramirez (which he really didn’t want to beat up because they were friends). I can go on naming other very good fighters that he dismantled in his prime and after: Alberto de las Mercedes Cortes - undefeated in 44 fights at the time
Kyung Duk Ahn - IBF took that title
Angel Hernandez - Undefeated in 37 fights at that time
Miguel Angel Gonzalez - past his prime at 36, Mario Martinez - WBC
Ruben Castillo - WBC
Juan La Porte - WBC
In closing this is just my opinion. I am pretty young in the boxing game but a student of the game as a trainer and figher. I have only been in the game for a little over 20 years. Peace, DpR
P.S. please hit me back, I would love to read what you have to say on this. I would guess also that you would say Mike Tyson wasn’t a great fighter oh yeah because he got retarded in the mid nineties. Well, it really started showing before then. But, that doesn’t erase the accomplishments that were made my him. I don’t really acknowledge Tyson of the nineties because he was not the same fighter and was fading fast as all fighters with that style does.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Chavez is a legend, De La Hoya is a Chicken!
August 7th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Well, this guy sure does not know what he is talking about, chavez beat everyone out there at the time, accepted all challenges and never back down like a true mexican fighter with huevos! Stop confusing the young generation that did not get the privilege of witnessing Mr. Chavez whoop ass in his prime. Those last losses you mentioned were well beyond his prime, in those fights against De la Hoya, and kostya tszyu he was done with his boxing career and was only doing it for the money. Any mexican can tell you about the news of his misfortune, losing his wife, and all of his money. He knew he wasnt what he used to be and it showed , but he fought them not to prove anything because he had nothing left to prove, but because he was in a desperate situation like many boxers find themselves after retiring when they had bad financial advisors. Chavez coming back to fight good fighters like tszyu is like michael jordan coming back to face someone like Kobe bryant: although we know mike is the greatest of all time and in his prime he schooled kobe, we know that he probably couldnt do it now!!!!Not Even Ali fought or won as much as Chavez name another boxer who has gone 90 fights without losing
October 7th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
27 title defense 37 title fights! most of any boxer in history. The problem is that you lack a knowledge of boxing to know that back then they were fighters now they are buisness men like De La Hoya. Todays fighters are just high profile but not good fighters. Case in point name me a list of all the top fighters today? Chavez was considered the pound for pound best fighter in the World for several years. 6 time world champion, three divisions. Tzyu, De La Hoya and Whitaker got Chavez after he fell into problems with his wife, money and subtance abuse. If he were American he would of been considered the best fighter of all-time.